note--more discussion on Kammas shifted to this page here
Aravind Ghosh ( firstname.lastname@example.org ) :--
I think you have given facts about andhra castes and histroy which are, I believe are atleast 75% wrong. I think you failed in doing your homework properly before writing what ever you have gathered from where I don't know.
I am very sorry for being so rude, however being a son of eminent encylcopaedia compiler Sri. YARLAGADDA Anjaneylu, I am extremely annoyed the way wrong facts are being spread by your website. I was part of research team appointed by the then Telugu Bhasha Samithi, the pioneer institute for reasearch into Andhra History funded by the Madras University and later got merged into Telugu University. The team was headed by eminent historian Cheemakurthi Seshagiri Rao and was consisting of great people like Vasudeva Parabrahma Sastry, Mudigonda Veerabhadra Sastry etc. The intial reseach was spearheaded by Sri Mallampalli Somasekhara Sarma ans I think no historian ever dared to question hid studies.
Shortly I would be publishing the facts of Telugu History on the web.
------Dear Mr. Ghosh, Your frank email is most welcome and highly appreciated. I dont think it is rude at all! But you havent pointed out anything specific except saying 75%. What can anyone make of that ?
The qualifications of your respected father is impressive as also the qualifications of the historians whose names you have quoted. Please do impress us further by sending some specific details of what you dont agree with and why.
Best of luck on publishing your article(s) on the web. I will certainly link so that people can get various views, too. with best regards--ram
Hi all, the claims made by various communities border on the fairy tales. These cannot be taken seriously. Only scientific research will clarify the matters.
-----But what's your problem? Let them claim what they want---why should anyone object to some other persons' traditions? Better to examine them without prejudice for , or against. What is known as "folk tradition" often contains a germ of truth although it may be overlaid by ( fake ) additions. Especially if the tradition is very old, and mentioned in various places, it is likely there's something. Modern research is fine, but here too the sample sizes are necessarily limited and certain CRITICAL scientific assumptions are made which are glossed over. Unfortunately, what happens is the results of a certain limited study are seized upon by interested parties who dont understand the scientific aspects, to proclaim certain things because it appears to fit in with their "ideology". It need not be racism or supremacism -- reverse racism and chronic "victimism" (to coin a term) also is incorrect.
Mahendra Booshana Rayalu( no email ) :--
i've seen drafts of all communities...but i think there is lot of distortion in actual history of all communities .
Tracing back the history of a specific community to sathavahana empire is biggest mistake.Buddism and Jainism were more prevelent in Andra than main stream hinduism .
We are decendants of Vijayanagara empire and we still have contacts with our relatives in vijaya nagara(present karnataka) ...infact we were being called as kapus or naidus or balijas in Andra\Anantapur....and some of our decendents\relatives in vijayanagara(present karnataka) still holds the privalage of starting the cerimonies in lot of big temples in and around Hampi.
Lot of my kapu friends from Andra region's surname match with village names around Hampi.(I believe they were my near-related relatives in present Andra as they migrated after the fall of Vijayanagara empire---large concentrations are in Krishna-Godavari and Chittoor Dts of Andra(here they were called as Balija Naidus)). Infact some even match with Kamma and Reddi and all other communities.
Only 100% correct info is that present word Naidu is a distorted version of Nayakudu or Nayaka . But a naidu is not necessarily a Kapu or Balija ....a kamma , Velama or lot of other communities have this surname . kammas in rayalaseema were called naidus . some telugu kings with surname reddi were said to be kammas ??? Velamas of Vijayanagaram(Andra) and Srikakulam were called Naidus .
The actual history tells that Reddy was never a caste....(its actually embeded in to some family names of lot of kings). Almost all of present samstanas(Sri Khalahasthi , Venkatagiri , Karveti , reddys in rayalaseema say there caste is kapu (infact they never document their caste as reddy ...they write it as kapu ). Kammas in present Ongole dt of Andra were called Kapu in their villages .
A recent study at Stanford university reveled that there is a close resemblence of kamma , kapu , Reddy and even Bramhins in andra to Afrikans and not to Asians or Europians....that is Telugus as a whole might be one of the first people to have migrated to India millions of years ago.....still this reaserch is going on and u can vist other sites for info.
Telugus (Kammas , Kapus , Reddis and othes in Andhra are not Aryans...they can be called as DRAVIDIANS).
-----Mr Rayalu, you have made some very interesting points, but please clarify which community you are referring to as descendants of Vijayanagar empire.
Also you have to remember, inscriptional and archeological evidence counts more than oral tradition or vague anecdotes, helpful as it may be. Hence whether we like it or not, we have to give importance to hard factual evidence first, and only then to other sources.
Migrations have been going on since prehistory.why do you think it should take place AFTER vijayanagar grew weak? Why could it not have taken place during all the preceding centuries before vijayanagar was created (1300's)? Vijayanagar is very recent my friend, and Indian clan histories go back thousand years before. For instance satavahana times there are hundreds of inscriptions detailing various merchant communities and trade associations. Why only Buddhist orJain --it could have been during tribal times.
'Kapu' means in the sense of 'protector', as I have stated. Reddy is like a title, but it has very much become a caste with concrete historical evidence backing up the claims. Ask the Reddys. Before making sweeping statements like Reddys Kammas etc are not aryans you first have to explain what you mean by 'aryan'.
Overall it seems you have serious disagreements with the draft articles. Please write in much more detail your carefully thought out opinions and we'll publish it here for discussion. All are welcome: someone may say, telugus are all from australia, or china or a lost sunken continent. Dont forget to cite archeology and inscriptions. And your email too.
K Anantha Raju(anantharaju----yahoo.com ):--
your view that suryavamsa and chandravamsa are from a single king having two wives may not be correct. suryavamsa is the first one to become powerful the ikshvaku sri Rama of Ayodhya and later chandravamsa of the pandavas.
I would like to know the kula devata (community deity) detail. I belong to the Somavamsa Arya Kshatriya and we have Sri Nimishamba as the deity and we are the off spring of the Muktarshi as mentioned in the Brahmanda purana, Varna Vaibhava kanda would like to hear about any organisation representing this community
-----It is not _MY_ view. I have merely collected various traditional views. I have also said I dont think this view is correct, and gave reasons.
Some Raju friends told me this story which is prevalent, which is used to explain the two vamsa divisions.
Thanks for your contribution--I'm sure someone will respond with more details. I will ask some people too.
Krishna Prashanth Reddy ( krishna_p_reddy/////yahoo):--
You have done a great job by putting up the relevant history of different communities in Andhra Pradesh. At least it gives a rough if not entirely true (which is impossible) history about the communities in AP.
But what amuses me is the human psychology for easily succumbing to brand loyalty. The genius of the soap-powder vendor lies in creating the branding and the brand loyalty: just consider how often you switch your soap-powder brand. Similarly, I may swear by my caste to protect it at any cost and be very loath to change it: because I have bought into the brand. Branding is thus a very powerful force -- we all want to belong.
After going through the responses of many people in the feedback section, I personally think that we Indians suffer from too much history and should aim to transcend it. ---- Krishna Reddy, Irvine, California.
-----yeah, apart from the insightful comments, the feedback is great for laughs. As everybody knows, Indians are special --they even get to pick and choose which caste/community they want to be born in.
RAJA SEKHAR REDDY CHAIKAM(email@example.com ):--
Hello Ramamrao, I think you need to know more about Reddys. You had added the unnecessary things to which are not related to the past history and left the things which are very important.
And I also want to remind you, You had written more than what it has for Kamma caste, they does'nt have the history what you had mentioned, I know you are a kamma that is why you boasted about your caste like anything. (--etc some aspersions on the origin of kammas snipped )
----Thanks for the email. I appreciate your frank views. But I have absolutely no connection to kamma caste.
Dont waste your time thinking negative thoughts about other communities. Ignore the bad, appreciate the good.
I hope you will add something good and worthwhile about Reddys. Or anything which appeals to you as good.
Best would be, create a site and write what you want there.
ram rao garu.. ur not a reddy but still u took great pains to collect information on reddys. thanks.
s reddy (no email):--
what the hell going on with the information about Reddy community yaar. all the information given about the origin/history of Reddy community looks like trash.
somebody is fooling us. and we have to believe that some mr.ramchandra rao is investigating our community's history leaving his community. and other guy says that the history of Reddy last back from england and so.
our origin is 'Aryan'. we all belong to aryan group and we had other name called 'dravida', cause we belong to 'dravida desa'. (india was previously called as dravida desa). and the history presented by some friends looks to be rubbish.
the main occupation of Reddy community, as per indian history is cultivation. might be in mean time, Reddy's formed to have ruled some places, were in key positions in some kingdoms. as this community people has good ability of work and perfomance, they could manage to be the leaders of the villages and societies. the same thing was in different parts of the regions of andhra pradesh with naidu(s), kamma(s), raju(s) and so on. who ever dominated the area, they were the leaders.
but the bad thing is the rubbish politics. some people of the community behaved in such a manner that total community is facing a the word - 'reddys do anything for power & money'. i don;t know how many among you are aware of the nothern part of the country. but i had a experience with some north indians saying these words. i am not stressing these words, but i am trying justify what i heard. for this reason, our community is moving out of politics. after NTR, the influence of our community has decreased. i am not criticising NTR ji. i am his fan. he is the key man for the planning of modern andhra pradesh. but on the other side, our community do not have chances of getting jobs from govt & public sectors or any convinient jobs. the only thing Reddy has to do is to cultivate the lands which do not have any water sources (already better lands are on the way with PWG naxalites) and other way is to study hard and compete for professional jobs which we are doing now. we don;t have other way. the people who are economically sound in our community are also forcing their children to study hard and to go abroad so that they will be away from social evils.
don't think that i am going out of topic, i always wanted to metion my feelings. now i got it.
i request the friends who are passing the rubbish information, try to judge the genunity of the information and pass it. you can have if not much, a little information from our elders. don't under estimate our elders. i am beating 'Dabba', the people in our community are intelligent and informative. if not how could they have ruled the state and were in key position for so many years (even now).
finally, i would like to say that - the word REDDY - says that - we are READY for anything & everything. we have the capability of acheiving any strong hurdles. the only thing we have to prove is, we should prove our unity.
----- hmm dabba alright, but no email or id...not like a reddy. Unfortunately many people are accustomed to hearing the often fabricated stories and dont take the trouble of researching for themselves. Anyway thanks for posting twice in the discussion. Send some more!
PINKY( email not given):--
mr. bs reddy, had a good information about history of reddys. i don;t know the where about of the information. and i appreciate him for that collection.
but i feel to inform you people that there is lot more difference between reddy & reddi. as per the caste system metioned by the govt. of india for the management of reservations - 'reddy' community comes under farward/other caste. while 'reddi' comes under schedule tribes.
---ok get in touch with Sudhakar Reddy and send us the info too. About tribal konda reddi, please read the article again. By the way Praveen, mischievous anti-reddi messages are sometimes posted on reddionline, use your common sense. Saying reddis are descended from 1860 irish missionary is ridiculous.
pradeep varma nadimpalli(deepzden--yahoo):--
: hi, thanx for ur information about "kshatriyas" who are supposed to be the warrior class. i really appreciate your work. you could have made this site a better one and informative one if u would have given the information about various surnames of andhra-kshatriyas and their gotrams. hope you'll do that.
--OK, but YOU guys --readers--- are supposed to do that. It's a small thing, but even in this matter, see how active and rapid the chowdharys are !
Mutyala Venkat( bhagavan_m^^^yahoo.com ):--
hi, anybody there with surname "mutyala", if there is please let me know. I live in the US. And this brief history about kammas is excellent and superb. This will be helpful for the people who want to know about our community. Very much thankful for writing this essay. Are the mutyalas connected to muktyala?
A. Babu ( firstname.lastname@example.org ) :--
you do not have enough knowledge to write about andhra brahmins.u better talk to older generations of brahmins to write about them
-----I think you will be drawn to read the page again and again......
vaastavam manchi maatay chepparu. medicine is apparently bitter but in truth it is amrutam. saashtaanga namaaskaaram to the lakhs of great gurus the line of which goes on and on without end! it is merely their prasaada. Now, you are requested to share the information you seem to have obtained. Otherwise it is just air.
I am told that the Nayak Kings who ruled Madurai Area of Tamilnadu are Kammas. Is this true ? What about the more famous of them Tirumalai Nayak and VeeraPandya Kattabommulu Nayak ? Is there any reliable source of information on the history of Kammas who migrated to Tamilnadu centuries back ?
---like I mentioned in the article on kammas, several knights of vijayanagar were 'promoted' to regional governors (similar to "barons" and "dukes"). If the government of Vijayanagar became weak, some promptly schemed to become independent. Mostly they were unsuccessful but some managed. Right now I don't have specific details of Tirumalanayaka's background. Katabomman is a legendary figure in Tamil folklore : in andhra he is known as Katta Brahmanaidu.
V Pavan Kumar ( pvedantam///////hotmail ): -
thanks for the prompt reply to my mail, i found it very informative, not that i am a particular casteist or racist or whatever, it is sometimes interesting to your origins( how ever serpentine, surreptitous , they may be), well all i can say is that indians are a pot -pourri of all races, and we have to accept that!.
I am interested to know your caste. You are doing well to reinforce some prejudices/opinions . That brahmins are learned/good people, reddys were large/ancient community but on the decline, kammas are upstarts who had no Royal history. And the mother of them all, Kapus ARE the people ( I wonder what this means ) and they are the bedrock of AP. I wonder again what this means !
Well ! The same old strategy !! Accept something which stares at your face ( like kammas have been successfull in recent times ), for otherwise your own credibility is at stake ! Then go on reaching a conclusion to your liking, wherever there is some doubt/lack of suficient awareness amongst people !! Well done !!
--Hi Mr Kishore--It seems you have NOT read it thoroughly. Read it carefully and at leisure, and then send your valued comments. I mean this sincerely. Tell you what. Just write YOUR opinions on the topics clearly and thought out, I'll place it there. But not just as "reaction", but sufficiently well thought out.
About Kapus, old histories note the kings prior to a particular date were of "kaapu" i.e. protector community. Mackenzie manuscript, for instance. (I will get more details soon. In fact they are the old 'genuine' aryan grouping.)
Basically I don't care about these things or prejudices. Merely examining what I see. My caste? Haha ! I was born in brahman family. I am communist minded. (f.y.i. this actually means, in Indian shorthand, skeptical and science-minded ;- )
V Pavan Kumar ( pvedantam\\\\\\hotmail ):--
i was browsing the web and happened to come across your website, i am a graduate student in USA. I am a Andhra Brahmin, and my surname is Vedantam, I am not quite sure but people do confuse me as being italian, spanish , etc, is there any connection with these countries, if not why do many people of my caste look similar to europeans, oh yes i am a vaidiki brahmin, i would greatly appreciate if you could comment. --Vedantam Kumar.
----I am not an expert on these things, but to the best of my knowledge, italian and spanish people also have two eyes, two ears, one nose, etc etc. So the confusion is easily explained.....seriously, though, it means they are related to your folks. Now before you jump on to the "aryan" "indo-european" bandwagon keep in mind a few other things.
Most of the population in the regions mentioned by you Italy, Spain, are derived from immigrants from central asia--- scythian (saka), khazar, visi-goth, ostro-goth, alani, vandals, frank, keltoi, etc immigrants. Some of these chaps also came to India and settled down as saka, gujara, jatta, etc-- some of them right down to south India. They MAY have followed the so called aryans' route across the hindukush or across south eastern afghanistan.. They haven't been living in india for long enough, so they're fair skinned still. (the genuine descendants of the original 'pracheena' ancient aaryans either of 'sarasvati river' origin or kurgan origin whatever, are now pucca kaaliyas --- coal black--- due to the fierce Indian sun. .. :-). For some interesting stuff in your case, check up on the khazars and history of the ashkenazim.
Krishna Bachu ( email@example.com):--
Personally, I am a big hater of the caste system right from my childhood. Thanks my elementary school education and until recently, I hated myself to be a part of any discussion with the caste system in Andhra. Having carefully observed that the caste has become a very important qualification in Andhra currently, and the caste politics even in the U.S. Telugu Organizations, I am beginning to show some interest in learning the origins of the castes.
.... I understand that Ramanuja who was determined to propagate "vaishnavism" created the "Balija" caste intermingling the different castes of that time. Similarly, it seems, some new caste were created for shaivas.....As you indicated, both kamma and reddi castes themselves are a mixture of many origins and castes. kapus/balijas are understandably the same. Logically, it should be the same with the Andhra brahmins. It always confounded me that how come we have so many millions of brahmins today from the few brahmin Aryans ... in the same vein that we have about 250 million muslims in India now from a handful of muslim invaders. There should have been a lot of mechanisms including coercion existent at that time for one caste/community to convert to another Is it not the same case with Christians now in India? I appreciate your thoughts.
---Every community without exception has "mixed" roots. It appears the so called status is conferred by the people at large : it takes some generations to rise and fall in the hierarchy it would appear. Taking India as a whole, there is an accelerated rise "upwards" for most AP people due to speedy takeup of science, education, computers, etc. By next generation what do you think they will be considered?
The balija etc: they are old jain -buddhist era merchant community basically. "Balija" is connected to "vanijya" merchant. ( in business too there were particular specialisations and associated guilds , like importers, exporters, regional areas, articles of trade etc. So you have gaadjula balija, etc). I am getting more info for a tentative page.
More than 95 % Indians have local roots. This caste formation seems to be a mechanism which allows some cooperation while maintaining indigenous community traditions. Whatever they may say it appears most Indians are very conservative and extremely tenacious about what they consider "their" traditions in this respect.
Why dont you write more of your observations on notions of Indians in the USA in these matters. Very little is available.
In Tamil Nadu "Kamma Mahajana sangam" headed by Mr.Kengusamy Naidu (Industralist from Udumalipet, Coimbatore area). This is the major sangam for kammas in Tamil Nadu. It would be highly appriciated if you could start the seperate web site for kammas in AP and TN. This will be useful for all our community people.
--Thanks for the info, Balaji. I think there are already such sites...I can appreciate you're keen on the roots thing, but it is just a cultural indicator and shouldn't be magnified out of proportion. Actually in my humble opinion all of us would do better to forget about the primitive and backward looking clannishness and instead go forth with the forward looking humanistic ideas.
Ravi Chandrasekhara(firstname.lastname@example.org ) :--
INTERESTING SITE. In the varna-ashrama scheme, I have heard Reddys are Sudras and in Koenraad's Elst's book Indigenous Indians, quotes statements from Reddy Kings proud that they are Sudras derived from Lord Brahma's feet. Were the Rashtrakutas Reddys ? If Reddys are Kshatriyas by birth, do they undergo the sacred thread ceremony, I have heard they do not since they are Sudras. It appears aryan and Dravidian only refer to linguistic groupings rather than anything else. What do the puraanas/vedas state about the origins of Reddys
---According to the puranas 'in the kali age all kings will be from sudra category'. As you are probably aware 'sudra' in AP roughly means 'king" because most of the kings proudly pointed out their origins were so and so. According to what we find in manu etc the aryans eventually divided into broad class/occupational categories (and this became rigid later). Early passages dont bother about these things, a late 10th mandala verse (purushasukta) is what the reddy kings you mentioned quote.
I have not found any reference to the word reddi in puranas. Ratthas, rathis, maharathis , raddi, rattodi, rathodi --these are old names found elsewhere, for instance in inscriptions.
H K Reddy (harikumarreddy---hotmail ):--
Thank you very much for your research conducted on Reddy community, I will definitely contribute you in making your effort a success and I will shortly provide the comprehensive list of successfull people in various fields.
Pavan (mpr_123----yahoo.com) :--
The article (reddis.htm) is too good without any biased opinions
--thanks, we try to be objective ! Want to add something?
I would like to know more about Reddy community outside of Andhra Pradesh too..do u have any info
--There are Reddiars in north Tamilnadu who I think are Reddis. In Karnataka the Reddis merge into the landlord Gowdas. Similarly in maharashtra I think they merged with the (landlord) maratha community. In rajasthan -west MP-north Gujarat I think they are connected to Rathods. Several reddis migrated to Burma also. Actually, since the Reddis are a very old and land controlling community I think it is likely they are simply known under different regional names, some of which I have mentioned above. If you have any information to add, please do send. It need not be historical --it could be any interesting anecdote on anything related to the subject.
S. Reddy( ):--
I went through your essay on Reddys.Would like to give more info.If you are interested!. Thanks
---- certainly, most welcome. But please double check everything, OK?
Thanks for maintaining such a good site...i am from Hyderabad...A.S.Rao Nagar to be specific and am in USA at present.I feel very happy to see the description in ur site about A.S.Rao Nagar and its surrounding places.
But i have one complaint ...why did u not include "Brahmins" in the communities and clans section...they r also, i believe, the most important sector of Hyderabadi people. Hope u would make the changes soon. Ravi
--getting many such requests.....OK, see this tentative note. Something inconvenient, the facts dont always match the self image, "history" and ideas various communities may have about themselves. For instance "brahmins" are a very diverse grouping. Many communities pages are coming.
Yezdyar Kaoosji (yezdyk--yahoo):-February 25, 2002
Parsi-Zoroastrians---A small yet very important community that has contributed much to India and demonstrated a unique leadership by blending, adapting and integrating into Indian culture, without losing its own identity .... the Parsi-Zoroastrian community of India.
Hope this microscopic community and its contributions are not ignored. Stalwarts from this community have touched every field of human endeavor in India since they migrated in the 7th century C.E.from Persia. In proportion to their population, the contribution of the Parsis is unbeatable by any other community.
I shall be privileged to provide resource materials if needed, including details of a UNESCO funded project to record Parsi Zoroastrian Heritage.
----Hi Mr Kaoosji, These pages on communities are actually about hyderabad/A.P. communities which are not well known i.e. detailed info is not gathered at one place. Everybody knows about mazdayasnis , besides there is no question of "blending", they are very much locals. Since last 8000 years since Mehrgad....... not just since the sanjan trip. But please do send the details you'd like to add. ( Pl. keep in mind the scope of the pages, OK? )