sorry i had to remove anonymous feedback, but it was getting out of hand.
email addrs deliberately mangled to avoid spam
Your web page on history of AP and various sects and castes is very impressive! I thoroughly enjoyed it. I am a Chicago Patnaik (Andhra Patnaik not Orissa). Are Patnaiks indigenous to AP or did they migrate from Orissa ? and even in Orissa what are their roots etc. Is there any information about this caste and any books that talk about this.
One of the patnaiks told me that Andhra Patnaiks (mainly village karanams in srikakulam/vizianagaram dists) used to work for Maha mantri Thimmarusu of Krishna Deva rayalu as accountants/lawyers). I am not sure about the authenticity of this info but I would really appreciate if you can point me in the right direction (books, web sites that have similar info). Addition: --Some lastnames for patnaiks: Patnaik XXXmahanthi (xxx=yellu, jaya etc) and XXXX pathro (mahapathro, mahapathruni). Regards --Raj
---kalinga extended from central orissa to vijayawada area. (krishna river) although now Kalinga is considered part of Orissa (odhra). The eastern gangas, gajapatis etc controlled this area for long periods. So technically speaking many Telingas are actually Kalingas (or vice versa). Not just the term "patnaik", many others found in old telugu inscriptions, "lenka" for instance, are more common in Orissa. The oriya people with surnames like padhi, mahapatra, misra are more or less the same as karnams in A.P. and there is an important old smartha sankaracharya matha in puri. Besides it is also a famous vaishnava pilgrimage spot. I presume the large landholders in orissa have a similarity to rajus and velamas. Vijayanagar had a running battle with Gajapatis for a long time, finally they both swallowed the buffer states and clashed directly also. About Timmarasu connection to patnaiks, I'll ask some people : maybe readers could help.
Can you kindly tell me the history behind the surname Kalisipudi. All I know is that it is a small village somewhere in Nellore district. Please send me some notes on this.
-----anybody from Nellore knows about this?
Murali Apparaju(murali_apparaju yahoo.com):-
(in reply to murali's posting on gouds below) G Kalyani wrote:-- i was searching in the net for the word gandla. u have written that gandla and gouds r same. I am from rayalaseema.What i know is they both r different.U know..usually gandla means caste of people who will extract oil (i mean ganuga. u might have heard this telugu word). in that also there is ont-eddu gandla, rend-eddula gandla and devagandla. (eddu means oxen) gouds extract kallu (kind of liquor extracted from trees) it is actually goundla. bye.
venkatesh k ( kanvenkatesh-- yahoo.co.uk )
All these years I have been reading that the kings have built this temple and that temple. Through your site I came to know that stapathis build these temples. Could you let me know about their history.
---well, actually unknown skilled labourers built them under the supervision of the sthapathi acharyas, the master masons of India. Kings provided the funds they extorted from somewhere. Sthapathi acharyas are the senior gurus of the traditional architect builders. The term is nowadays used for stone works, but it was much broader earlier. Not only temples, they designed and built ancient stone dams, earthworks, fortresses, palaces, planned towns and landscapes, planned and implemented municipal services like sewerage and storm drains, water works, houses, wheeled contrivances and various machines. I'll soon place whatever I've been able to gather. Most of the traditional techniques are lost, or in fragmentary condition. The trade was rarely written down, but taught only to their apprentice disciples, inside the caste.
Hello my name is Alan Seunarayan and I live in the UK, My father and I are trying to trace any possible relatives with the lastname "Seunarayan" (or slight variations) and of Indian origins. I have been frantically searching the internet and I have found your site amongst the results. Can you please help me find out about my origins and any "lost" relatives? I would really appreciate it if you would contact me if you can help me or not. Regards and many thanks
---'Seunarayan' is the phonetic pronunciation of a very common FIRST name "Shiv narayan". (Its something fairly common like Johnson.) Or at a stretch it could be Seuna Rayan, (Seuna Rajah). I feel it is the first one. In which case, you are out of luck. However, if you could try and find out the region /town/city/language spoken/community-caste/parish/ etc--anything-- of some Indian forefathers, you could get something. Or where he worked/farmed. Some people have been successful. Send the details, we'll place it here and see what comes of it.
Hi, your Article is quite interesting. I like it a lot. Can you please send me more details regarding people of KAAPU. Thank you very much.
I'm from Karnataka. I came to your topic searching for the word "ahicchatra".
Near Udupi, there is a stretch of land which is called Kota. Some said it is a "Koota" (collection) of 14 "gramas" (villages) and actually the name is Koota and not Kota. But I would say that is not a correct answer ! The brahmins of this area are called Kota brahmins ...And speak old Kannada and are Smartha's. Kota brahmins main deity (Kula Dhevatha) is Yoganandha Narasimha (in Saligrama). The "Sthala Purana" (History of the Place) says some "Kadanba or Pallava" king brought 32 families of Brahimns from Ahicchathra.
For many years I have heard people in and out of Karnataka saying people of udupi (for that matter old South Canara district, now it is Manglore and Udupi ditricts) look differentl and have different habits (I shouldn't be saying this, but still, mainly the skin color !!!) . Most of them are into Business, Banking and Eduction. Is it true then that most of the brahmins are out siders in their actual territory...?
---You are correct. There are historical notices of immigrations. Kadamba king Mayurasarma and the rival Pallavas and early Cholas cleared dense forests and promoted agriculture. They "imported" people skilled in agriculture (not just brahmins, by the way) from ahichattra ( bareli) and some other places. The descendants are naturally bit fair and north indian looking. Not just smarthas, many other people of S kanara -karnataka also are from bareli-uttar pradesh area. Apart from this, there were large scale migrations of people (like sarasvatas) from north afghanistan (BACTRIA) -multan - south gujarat- even bihar. This happened gradually over many centuries and by many back and forth movements, of course.
Finally during Vijayanagar times there was a large scale immigration to south India --hebbars, for instance.
Now, whether these people are "outsiders".... well you have to remember they all (incl. brahmins and upper caste) intermarried with the "local" people, so you cannot really separate them today. All we can say these people seem to be partly derived from fairly recent immigrants to the area.
If you want to follow up the roots, examine the history of the source areas of that time periods.
Interesting news:--A SC candidate has been selected as priest in a kurnool temple according to Times of India
----This is very old news. At least nine centuries old. You are a typical angrez half baked #$#%%. All your miserable life you have no contact with the actual India under your nose : whatever scraps of information you have picked up is from dubious publications. All your opinions are out of a book, second hand and third-hand. Get out of your basti lower middle class mentality. Try to understand (i.e. implications) of the history that you read and connect it with the broad life of the people.
I'm looking for some info on "makkapati" surname of Guntur. Is it the same as "mokkapati".
could anyone give details of "badagalanadu" brahmins? (etc snipped) Thanks.
--Badagala is the same as well known "vadakala." (The tamil pronunciation caused the confusion). Vadakala is a large subsect of Ramaanuja vaishnava saampradaya (Iyengars).The vedic sakha designation doesn't mean anything except remote respect for learning, because the scriptures followed are the reformist Agamas.
Could anybody throw some light on Surname "Ravilla/Ravella." Thanks.
Gopi (gopi75au---yahoo.com) :-- Thanks for ur work. bye
Vasanth (torontonian99----hotmail.com) :---
This is a great site. Keep up the good work. Most of us do not know much about our history and culture you seem to have captured a lot of it. Its unfortunate that we dont have much of our history documented. It would have been great to know where the andhra folks originated from and when they started living in the deccan. Again keep up the good work
---thanks for the encouragement. we've captured just a grain of sand. Should we have a page about your question .... so write something and let others add and discuss?
prabhakar reddy (firstname.lastname@example.org):--
i am from a p . i want to know about munnuru kapu caste. i have so many doubts on balija and munnuru kapu .weather they r same r not.
Yogi (email@example.com) :--
hi there, Just one question. not in respect to ur article. is it true to say that Indians with dark skin are actually , genetically pure Indian.
--It means the people in question have been living in hot sunny area longer than those who are fair. Thus they have better claim to be "purer locals" whatever. It was just meant to provoke some fresh thinking. The people who live for many generations in hot sunny places become darker. The same people after many generations in cold icy northern latitudes would probably develop lighter skin. The older residents of India would be darker than the recent arrivals. You decide who is recent and who is ancient.
rajiv bolla (firstname.lastname@example.org) :--
Hi! My family name is Bolla. We are actually from Pedhapatnam, Amalapuram, East Godavari dist. I would like to know about my roots.
Kalluri (kalluri31 netscape.net):--
(about brahmans)--what a balanced article it is. clearly bringing out the various subcastes and their possible origin. hearty congratulations.
--thanks, but it is just an overview and beginning...
I am interested in knowing some more details about Naidu kapu, can u plz provide me with that..Thank u
------will take some time, we are still collecting the scattered information.....you want to add something also? welcome.
I want to know which community these names are common in---Myil, Ingeti , Kamtham, Achanala : and gothrams like bala , pala . (text snipped here). I am running a Matramonial Service hence I need this information.
(---Mr. Bhasker is going to combine his three emails with more material. Then we'll post as a separate page)
Ramesh(ramesh_v_pothuru AT groton.pfizer.com):--
Hi, please cover about vysyas(komati setties) in andhra pradesh. Thanks,
I have read some time ago (I think the series "south Indian tribes & castes" available at Hyderabad Central Library, Chikkadpally) about some connection betn. Madiga community & the Komati (arya vaishya) community - any more info onthis angle?
My father who is from krishna district(pedaprolu) refers to some 'Erra Madiga' palerlu who he says are much fairer than the other madigas (also check for information on 'Erra Gollalu' at http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/hub/73.2reddy01.html)
One more coastal 'SC' community may be mentioned here, the "yanadi" (possibly from Anadi, ....age-old). For some peculiar reason these people who resemble africans are considered 'less untouchable' than Mala, Madiga - Yanadi farm-hands freely enter even the brahmin households - could make an intersting study in contrast, 'selective discimination'? one possible reason could be the lifestyle, Yanadis may be tribals who have their own social structure & hence have some standing in terms of culture like the Koya and Yerukala tribes, while the Malas & Madigas are the considered the bottom of the heap in the brahmanic caste hierarchy - (funny....., but it has parallels in the modern soceity too, for eg. we may look down upon an Indian Peon and simultaneously wish 'good mornin' to an American Janitor, as he is from an unknown/ foreign culture !)
----I think you are referring to Thurston's book on communities of south India, a pioneering effort of last century. Very well written and objective. However he needed translators and interpreters and we know who they were, eh?
Several patron-client relationships exist between caste-communities. Doubtless there are old links. For that matter between brahmins and boyas too in some areas. Will post the details later.
Yanadi are very ancient community. I have some interesting material, waiting for good pictures. Curious, these ppl are 'brahmanoid' tribals basically ?!!
venkata uppalapati (email@example.com) :--
Anybody has the idea about uppalapati surname? Is there any link with uppalapati (surname of some kshatria's.
---check out a village by name uppala paadu , (salt- hamlet?) some of your folks may hail from there. May be more than one such village, but likely on the coast. Also Mogaltur rajus have same surname if I remember right.
satish rachapalli (firstname.lastname@example.org) :--
I would love to beleive in your stories about the origins of various communities in AP. But its hard to accept your various claims like rathods are reddys and kammas originated 1000 years ago unless you give the readers the references where you got these facts from. I think you are knowingly or unknowingly increasing the gulf between the various castes in our state by making these claims. Already we are the most caste conscious people of India (with the exception of Biharis may be)and your RESEARCH is making it more difficult for the people to get together.
Its really sad to see reddys and kammas still fighting about who is greater than whom when we all are pretty backward when compared to most people in the world.
If you have any proof to your claims then write what ever you want and until then only a few people will beleive in your claims. Regards, Satish
----I have given the PRIMARY sources, pl read carefully. You have a laudable "agenda" to "reduce the gulf" between castes. However, this sort of liberal bleeding heart stuff doesnt cut it at all. It might be sincere, but generally is shown to be totally fake at the crunch. (I dont mean YOU, but the trend in general.) You see we've been hearing this pious hope for quite some time now. But the reality is what you yourself stated. Also I suggest you check out whether the various christian denominations have some caste base, too. But dont despair: capitalism /urbanisation /industrialisation will rapidly efface these divisions, after the people themselves understand. But they wont go away by pious voluntary exhortations and pseudo-leftist slogans so long as there's an economic basis for caste identity.
Anne Chapuis (anne.chappuis AT wanadoo.fr) :--
Bravo, I am not Hindu, nor Muslim, nor Christian (I was born in a C. family) and I am not Indian but I spend nearly half of my time in India for the past 30 years. it is the first time i find reasonable thinking on indian society. besides your cultural and historical pages are great and interestingly different from the usual stuff.
----Thanks for the encouraging message! majority of people are quite reasonable and enlightened, only their views are not spoken. So the noisy crazies get the publicity and give everybody else a bad name. But internet is something new and everybody gets a chance to speak out, not just the professional writers and the ones with a particular agenda.
Anonymous (no email):--
Why every person here wants own ancient history and to have roots from great kings and queens. What is wrong in roots from common man without any history and achievement except ordinary lives. There are roots from unachieving thousands oif unknown useless ancestors. Why this obsessing for past greatness.
--No, I think they are just glad about some cultural elements they have been handed down from these ancestors, actually. Doubtful anybody really thinks THEY are great because some single remote grandancestor was famous. Actually if not for every unknown little bent over and aged great-N-great-N grandmother, they wouldnt be here at all. So, viva all unknown Great-g-g-grandmothers! l salam! zindabad !
About roots of GOUDS--I have an observation here, there is a community called "Gandla" in telangana - these people are otherwise known as Gouds only in the urban community; see the similarity ? Gandla......Goudla....Goud..
If you go to any village still remote & far flung frm urban civilization, the toddy tappers are always called as Malligadu, Elligadu, kistigadu etc. (gadu as a slighlty condescending & disrespectful way) - I strongly feel as the comunity grew in land ownership, they started to call themselves Malla Goud, Ella Goud, Krishna Goud - and I think this phenomenon could be as recent as thirty forty years ago) In Telangana area Gadu can become gandu & hence the caste gandla - (if you have observed they have this tendency of adding a "sunna"(n) where it otherwise does not exist for example vastadu/ pothadu in coastal andhra will become vasthandu/ pothandu in Telengana particularly Karimnagar & warangal districts.
Similarly the Neni soud in the sirnames of kammas might have been a apabhramsam of either the naidu sound or the nayakudu sound; -----ganganayakuni........ganganayani......ganganeni Ganganaidu....ganganeedu....ganganeni (belonging to ganganeedu).
Discuss directly with murali also
-------I havent examined the name goud in detail so I really have no opinion. But one more derivation could be 'Gaura' in the sense of 'respect' because village headmen were styled Gouda. There's also a Gavara community in north coastal AP mostly into trading. But I dont know if theres a connection.
On Kammas, etc
your article on Kammas is a little sychophantic - you sure are dazed by their achievements - In this essay you sound more like a PR hired by the community rather than a "Sceptical & scieintific mind" as u hv claimed in one of ur replies. No wonder some people seem to doubt that u r a Kamma (I know u r not as I know more such brahmins who show the same tendency of overwhelming awe for kammas & Reddys - hey isn't communism full of Kammas - now i know where you got ur fascination....... Your write up on Kshatriyas is very basic - i think they are one of the best specimens of communities in Andhra - One of the respondents claimed to be a descendent of krishnadevaraya, i dunno, but my research reveals that the erstwhile family of tuluvar rayas belong to the current day BUNT ( equivalent of telugu BANTU - soldier) community of Karnataka (The Shetty, Rai, Ballal etc) And going by mere physical resembelnce, the West Godavari Rajus seem to be very very similar to BUNTS - A clear lead for other people to do some research from this angle) Please continue to put in more information & please donot hesitate to retract or modify your earlier writeups if you get a genuine feed back - i am sure u will Regards -------whew! OK you've made so many points. Lets see. The articles are DRAFT articles, version 0.6 alpha or something like that. In a sense I am a journalist-researcher sharing my notes and various leads on ongoing stories with everyone who is interested. Lot of people seem to like this. This method is possible only on the web. Many of the leads people mention may not stand up to scrutiny. But why censor them unless they are patently incorrect? read Krishna Reddy's wise and insightful comment on this topic ... When I said communist-minded I was referring to the scientific and objective outlook , which is popularly called in India "communist minded". <.....snipped....> Abt Bant/bantulu, the Mudiraj in AP are also called bantulu. My researches indicate they are connected to Velama states, as commando / specialist infantrymen. KD Raya was a tuluva, certainly. But I'm not sure he was a bunt. Most of the Raya crowd were of kuruba -golla background, as were several deccan dynasties like the chalukyas, the seuna yadavas, even many of the mahrattas. Surendra Nath (email@example.com) :-- --still collecting information....you see it is a huge community and several regional sub-divisions and offshoots, so simple overall history is not possible, it will be fragmentary. Actually readers should start posting information they know. Like family traditions, legends, etc --these things are not like archeology, so need not be 100% backed up with hard evidence. Lets hear from you. Santm( no email) :-- ----you forgot your email, how are we to let you know? Or maybe you can re read the page later to see if anyones responded. Apti seems same as Apte, fairly common deccan surname. Others are place names of andhra villages. Kasal may be kasalnaadu.
Please let me know some more information on history of KAPUs. bye.
Any idea about the surnames like---- ' mothkur', 'manikonda',' apti',' kasal',' belakonda' they are all from karnataka. please let me know.
by v r rao
Your write up on Kshatriyas is very basic - i think they are one of the best specimens of communities in Andhra - One of the respondents claimed to be a descendent of krishnadevaraya, i dunno, but my research reveals that the erstwhile family of tuluvar rayas belong to the current day BUNT ( equivalent of telugu BANTU - soldier) community of Karnataka (The Shetty, Rai, Ballal etc) And going by mere physical resembelnce, the West Godavari Rajus seem to be very very similar to BUNTS - A clear lead for other people to do some research from this angle)
Please continue to put in more information & please donot hesitate to retract or modify your earlier writeups if you get a genuine feed back - i am sure u will Regards
-------whew! OK you've made so many points. Lets see.
The articles are DRAFT articles, version 0.6 alpha or something like that. In a sense I am a journalist-researcher sharing my notes and various leads on ongoing stories with everyone who is interested. Lot of people seem to like this. This method is possible only on the web. Many of the leads people mention may not stand up to scrutiny. But why censor them unless they are patently incorrect?
read Krishna Reddy's wise and insightful comment on this topic
... When I said communist-minded I was referring to the scientific and objective outlook , which is popularly called in India "communist minded". <.....snipped....>
Abt Bant/bantulu, the Mudiraj in AP are also called bantulu. My researches indicate they are connected to Velama states, as commando / specialist infantrymen. KD Raya was a tuluva, certainly. But I'm not sure he was a bunt. Most of the Raya crowd were of kuruba -golla background, as were several deccan dynasties like the chalukyas, the seuna yadavas, even many of the mahrattas.
Surendra Nath (firstname.lastname@example.org) :--
--still collecting information....you see it is a huge community and several regional sub-divisions and offshoots, so simple overall history is not possible, it will be fragmentary. Actually readers should start posting information they know. Like family traditions, legends, etc --these things are not like archeology, so need not be 100% backed up with hard evidence. Lets hear from you.
Santm( no email) :--
----you forgot your email, how are we to let you know? Or maybe you can re read the page later to see if anyones responded. Apti seems same as Apte, fairly common deccan surname. Others are place names of andhra villages. Kasal may be kasalnaadu.