no name (--)
It is good to highlight various tribes which came to India. But all have not maintained their history. Is is true the rajputs and jatts are from scythians and not from aryans.(indians). Why there is no history of jatts like rajputs who are in same area. Is it because their democratic ways were not liked by rajputs and brahmins who removed the records, etc.
----better ask experts on punjab communities for in depth answer on jats and rajputs. All we can say is there is SOME saka connections to them, thats all. Nobody in his senses claims the jats and rajputs are 100% scythians and that they have no connection with other peoples in India ...not even ISI intellectuals. The names you are using are just words with whatever meaning you want. Someone uses the same but with totally different meaning. The views of the painstaking researchers are often diametrically opposite. But gene studies says the jats and rajputs are more or less the same as other Indians, though....(and LOL, closely related to Uttar Pradesh and Bihar bhaiyya people ;-)
The time gaps between movements are rather large, which means the various immigrating people must have blended completely without spcific and separate identity. Blaming others for 'lack of our history' is absurd. The so called brahmins in those areas are very much the same as the group in question : for instance the later saka immigrants had VERY large extensive "brahmin" group with them. (early sakas were vedic arya type, in vratya form i.e. tribal group). A glance at the saka and kushan deities will give you a shock. These are the people who introduced what is called "popular hinduism". Later I'll post on a separate page.
I received some similar emails about the topic blaming this group and that group. This is a very important thing, not grasped by some people. Now there were democratic tribal republics all over India from ancient times : even today the many northeastern peoples in India have a "democratic tribal" system. This is fine in ancient times. But huge monarchic and imperial states hate to see this independent mentality especially if they are sitting on strategic resources like iron ore and coal ( early magadha jaanapada). (--and oil, adds a friend) Magadhans and Mauryans exerted themselves to destroy all tribal republics and forest tribes by spreading a type of "buddhism" by offering "buddhist sangha" as alternative as the same as "tribal sangha". Obviously it wasnt the same. So a differentiation arises in this democratic share-all way of life. Someone gets better land, discovers better sheep pasture, starts a business and does well, etc. Then the chieftains group become a layer ABOVE the rest of the tribe...then they control resources of entire tribe. They become part of the larger ruling class and kings etc. Very soon a class society develops, conflicting with easy egalitarian ways of the original tribe or brotherhood. Since the good humanistic elements of the old culture is retained, while the facts on the ground are different, there is a great deal of friction. This is INTERNALLY caused. The conflict resolution is attempted to be "exported" as being caused by some group e.g. "evil jews, evil sunnis, evil shias, plotting turks, fundamentalist christians, american multinationals, cunning pandits, power-hungry jats, conspiratorial rajputs"--- anything but the root cause. Which is differentiation WITHIN the community or clan. If it was a matter of farming land it could be kept under control, by rotation according to the community councils. But with modern industry and society? It is not possible. Most of the conflicts in such changing and emerging societies are INTERNAL conflicts. After a while the various fictions of "same biradari" "brotherhood" "caste" and "same religion" is quietly given up. They do retain their sentiment and try to do what best they can: but it conflicts with modern society. To be blunt, it is called capitalism : you have to accept the good and the bad points. You can't pick and choose beyond a point. Certainly you cant apply old ways to modern life. See the ferment in muslim societies and also rural India. They want modern things but want to choose only some social changes. Their criticism is very decent and human but they dont apply same practical yardstick to themselves, but point to some past imaginary fake golden period. Initially there is a reaction and rejection till better sense dawns. It has happened all over the world.
Ravishankar( -- ):-
I am interested in knowing the origins of the Babbur Kamme sub-sect of Kannada smaartha brahmins. Also, if you can give some anthropological details about why and how such sub-sects get created, it would be of great help to quench my curiosity.
----I dont have any info on how they originated. They seem to be older in the area than other sects, though. Check out if they have a connection to a particular saivite monastery or mattha. As to how and why these sub-castes and sub sects get created...
1. They may be immigrants from a neighbouring (or faraway) region and still identified as such after many centuries : eventually merging with other groups and forming a subcaste or subsect.
2. They may be geographically isolated, slowly forming a separate group.
3.There may be some change of ruling group within the state or something like that. The new rulers may wish to replace all the positions and endowments. The previous group has to go to the background and sulk. Has happened in karnataka several times.
4. In medieval times there were wholesale changes in the then current ideology. Popular cults may later harden into subcastes and subsects.
5. In general, the significant reason would be the group may take up another profession or modified profession and gradually become another community or caste. Cattle keepers and shepherds on the move may find interregional trade more profitable. Agricultural workers may shift to fishing : fishermen to sea going commerce : earth-diggers and civil engineering guilds might find a demand for massive stonework. Ivory carvers may shift to jewellery or stone carving instead. Potters, familiar with kilns and furnaces might take up metal smelting. Merchants could take up banking aspects of buddhist/jain monasteries and hindu temples. Scribes could become administrators ( kayasthas).
These processes happen all the time and all the world over in old societies.
shri gur (n_orf---lycos.com)
This discussion very interesting. However, what I cannot understand is this tendency to identify with Aryans.
I would like to know what the definition of Aryan is? Does it mean a person who looks like a Caucasian? If that is the case, nobody in India looks like a Caucasian. Let's face it, an Indian is an Indian. Right from North India to South India, we have features which can be called unique to Indians. Some may be dark, some may be fair, doesn't matter if you are a brahmin or a scheduled caste, bottomline is all Indians have that unique Indianness. You may find very dark people both in north india and south india and at the same time very fair people in any part of india. If you look closely, all have that indian feature. It is based on this uniqueness that you can recognize an indian in any part of the world.
If all of us have that uniqueness, I would like to know on what basis are we identifying with caucasians??? I think that Indians should stop trying to identify themselves with "ARYANS" (whatever the word is supposed to mean) and come to the realization that there is not much of difference between all Indians whether it is north indian or south indian or whether the person is a brahmin or a scheduled caste.
Lets stop bickering about caste, aryans and start acting as united people. Lets stop putting artifical hurdles (which may have been implanted by the British) in our paths. Only then are we going to come up.
------well, there WERE some people in remote antiquity who called themselves aryans or 'noble' and spoke 'arya vaacha' i.e. some old form of vedik-prakrit. Also there are many people all over India who do look similar to people from caucasus areas like armenia georgia black sea etc. Similarly many people who resemble ..ethiopia somalia arabia south africa and europe, and also china mongolia siberia, australia and oceania.. even native north and south america.
But really this aryan -dravidian nonsense started only with the english, post 1770. Right now the aryan dravidian fantasy is still popular with some people who feel bit inadequate/inferior and wish to suck up to the (currently advanced) west. Note that these tame servants would do the same to any paymaster. Tomorrow if by some chance eskimos would become world leaders this same bunch of lackeys would proclaim their basic eskimo-ness. ( nothing against eskimos, merely to illustrate).
But there is a equally incorrect reverse fantasy which is being propagated...like "aryans" have originated in india....this is the SAME THEORY and just as bad. It is only a surface modification of the previous theory.
None of them are ready to face genetic analysis or systematic archeology. Says something, doesnt it. Both these theories are POLITICAL RACKETS.
It is very nice to hear from you like this, but i said i am proud in a very rational way not in a super egoistic way. i basically said because i know lots of reddys who say that they do not know what is vedas and also accuse brahminism. for that only this was said.
let me share one interesting aspect of the community, we were basically kshatriyas , we were the senathipathis of the vijayanagara kindom in the rayalaseema base. Penukonda the summer capital of Vijayanagar was attacked by neighboutring muslim states, during a new year celebration (called Ugadi). The women preferred to immolate thmeselves rather than surrender. The chieftain named Reddivari Narasimha raya felt ashamed of this and also committed suicide. So our people do not celebrate telugu new years day since then. We only do the panchanga patanam on the next day without any celebrations.
generally Reddiars in tamilnadu are the donors to the priests in all major srivaishnaivite temples.
Giridhar Redivari (gir22--yahoo):--
I am very proud to say I am a Reddy, but we follow the brahmin customs, particulary the iyengars, our gothra is athreya and we also have a veda like brahmins. We follow the samaveda system and thats why we consider that we are from a aryan orgin.
-----Fine boss but why are you "proud" of any community you were born in? Did you have a choice, anyway. Iyengar customs are developed in 1100's AD by series of wise reformers. There were no Iyengars before the great Ramanujacharya created the community in order to remove bad practices in society. However Reddis have been around since very ancient times. The aryans are dated pre 2000 BC, Reddis 200 BC at least while Iyengars since around 1000 AD. Calculate the time gap and think. Ramanujacharya would be highly amused by your views. I feel you should go deeper into these very interesting things and get the true picture. But dont be "over attached" to your community or people will fool you and exploit you. Write some more details and share with all our readers!
Hello, can anyone tell me what from community is "boyapati" (my surname) ?
----You are jumping to amateur hasty conclusions. I've seen the informative and easy to understand TV programme. Dr Wells has not said anywhere 'dravidians' are missing link. Only that it seems likely there was a very ancient migration from africa which moved all the way to australia. No one has discovered "dravidian" remains nor "aryan" remains---it is only language and nothing else. In fact culturally too there is no distinguishing mark otherwise. From here to make a jump to aryan and dravidian and australians is unwarranted.
Kindly show me anywhere or any one has identified "dravidian" as a genetic category. You have incorrectly understood the gene aspects and are assuming some amateur conclusions. Still if you want to go into it further, find out something about "haplotypes" and what they may mean. You could then place a summary on one of your knowledge websites too so that readers are not misled.
---REPLY FROM S.GOPALAM
Hi Ram, I do not intend to start a controversy, but wanted to inform that it is a great program worth watching. "History is a peoples memory and without memory man is reduced to the lower lever of animals." - Malcolm X .
So we need to learn our past. Africans came to India by two paths. 1) Along the Arabian/Persian coast. 2) Therough central Asia. Today we Indians are Brown, Yellow, Black, Red, (and few almost white) people. But we share a common destiny. Our great Swami Vivekannda has said : "I am proud of my Aryan ancestor, my Dravidian ancestor and my Mongoloid ancestor" Regards, Sreenivas.
Arvind Reddy(arbyka yahoo.com):--
Im from UK and i read your thesis and u did a marvelous work and got good historical significance to various communities of our state i;e andhra pradesh and i appreciate ur unbiased work.
but what i think is already our state is suffering a lot from caste favouritism and discrimination and some people who have a bit extremist thoughts may take what u have written in good sense in a negative way(may feel more proud or sidelined) and this will lead to the multiplication of their feelings inside and these type of people are hindering the development of state with their regional and caste divisions in their mind. I request you to put some headings on the site stating that the work done is unbiased and no one should get a false impression about it and feel in a negative way so that we can at least save some guys from falling into the trap of that caste favouritism after reading them. And these things are more accessed by NRI's and even they are getting more and more narrowminded and showing that caste favouritism in other countries. Hope you will consider my request and i once again appreciate you for your excellent work.
-------Dr Arvind, I notice you still maintain reddy title...
but you have a big heart and can see the problems. But see some of our readers. many youngsters who otherwise do not know anything factual about their 'own' history, and instead hold rather irrational views regarding a lot of things. Reddis and Velamas etc know about their cultural roots but others? By no means. Most of the history they are fed is totally concocted. It is THIS fake history which is creating all the problems. Just in case you havent noticed, every page --- especially the feedback pages, I wrote WE ARE ALL MIXED according to scientific gene studies. Most NRI's never bothered much about these things when they were in India : now they are agog to trace the roots and develop their culture. They are also being taken for a ride by new incarnations of maxmuller and other fakes. The pages are a corrective medicine.
Yes I agree people are rather clannish minded still. But it will broaden out by itself. It is a matter of time common sense and economics.
And, what are YOU doing about the problem?
Dr Katarki( brkatarki--aol):--
I am a Reddi from north karnataka ..Reddis are off shoots of Rajasthani rulers -Chalkyas and Rashtrakutas who married local women from martial tribes. So Marathas (96 Kuli) from Maharashtra and raddis of Karnataka and Telangana are to some extent connected .
DNA studies should be conducted to establish these facts. I personally find same characterstics like feudal mentality arrogance and pride and always trying to others with of their clan to show superiority and more friendly with others than with thier own clan members in the village, adventerous and aristocratic in their attiudes etc.Please let me know if u have any more information on Karnataka reddis and their gotras.
indian subcontinet has all along been one of the greatest melting pots of the middle eastern central asians up to Ukrain , Mongols, Africans, Egyptians Turks with the vast original indian tribes of India and dravidians. I am certain that except small portion of primitive tribes settled in remote jungles no one can claim that have pure genetic origin . Mixing of people took freely before the advent of Gupta period .It is after that the Casteism started after the revival of veshnavivim then and Buddhism and Jainism stared declining.
-----Dr Katarki, I do not think reddis are offshoots of rajasthani rulers. The chalukya and rashtrakuta are not rajasthani they are deccan. THEY CONQUERED RAJASTHAN and not the other way about.
The actual history of south rajasthan rajputs shows THEY are descended from rashtrakuta-chalukya, and not the other way about. The chalukya rashtrakuta satavahana as seen in old paintings DO NOT resemble popular ideas of "rajasthanis". These northern rajputs are also affiliated with turks huns jatts etc.
Patils/Marathas/landlord Gowdas/ Reddis are not from "rajasthani" area in the sense of historical rajasthan. 'Reddis' have been around in Deccan since pre satavahana times. Later the huge empires of the satavahans, then the Baadami chalukya empire and the Raashtrakuta empire CONQUERED ujjain gujarat rajasthan haryana all the way up to kannauj (northern Uttar pradesh). Some of the ("fair", heh) gurjara pratiharas migrated south, merged with the reddis and marathas and certain other deccan communities exactly like the much earlier sakas merged with satavahanas. ( reddis were part of satavahanas).
DNA analysis will show this. Also you must remember the caste categories were not so watertight. The reformers all ensured this. We have to go by verifiable facts not someone's fantasy like some of the books propagate. I'll try to get some accurate info about karnataka reddis. Please add your info too.
Prasanna ( ):--
I belong to Routhu Naidu community . It seems my fore father have settled in Tamilnadu long time back. Can you give me details about the Routhu community in Andhra Pradesh. this would help in my research.
---------ROUT , RAUT, ROUTHU, RAHUTTU refers to cavalrymen. i.e horse rider of ancient military, roughly like tank regiment of today. I dont have info right now about your specific requirement ie routhu naidu in andhra. If you could send some details of what you have found, we can place on the site and see if anyone can add info.
Srikanth Rao P ( ):--
About Velamas---it is an interesting article/draft. There is a " A.P.Velama Association" , 3-6-432 Himayatnagar, Hyderabad-29.
We will cover your work in our forthcoming issue of Velama Vyjayanthi
S Suresh (SSunku------NA2.US.ML.com ):--
I have thoroughly enjoyed your 2 part essay on "About Roots Of Indians". It is very enlightening and changed the way I view my country and my people. I am from Andhra Pradesh and always had difficult time to believe the aryan invasion theory. I also worked in Wellington, N.Z for 2 years and always wondered about the origins of Maoris. Also, I have friends from coastal Andhra whose build resembles that of pacific islanders. Their build is stocky and had facial features similar to any Polynesian person. I wish that the Indian schools teach the new theories like yours and dump the aryan invasion theory completely. The A.I.T does not serve any purpose to anybody other than a few political parties in Tamilnadu.
-------There were MANY folk movements to India and from India down to many millenia. Some have left clear traces and some are very faint. Many are likely to have left no traces at all. Now the problem arises only when someone today says " these people were so and so and they were your/my great-N--grandfathers so I am this and you are that". This type of controversy is not about ancient migrations/invasions it is really about PRESENT day political rubbish, all imaginary issues designed to provoke emotional response. But people are not taking it seriously anymore since they are clearly aware there are many strands in the roots.
Heh, " My theory" is not new at all. It is a simple commonsense matter...also seen in Puranas and the old books. The current theory in textbooks is a combination of the biases of ridiculous 19th century european imperialist notions, the mughaloid absurdities and also the slightly older "upper caste" imaginary theories. The silly section of rebels ALSO believe these theories, internalise them and then try to use this theory for their ends and naturally come to grief. (Maybe thats the plan.) Personally I dont see why we should bother so much about ait or non ait. This type of armchair "scholars" are not confined to Tamilnadu. They are found all over India and the world.
Please write more of YOUR observations in NZ .