gopi m. (--):
I was doing some investigation on Arvela Niyogi Brahmins, Well i have tumbled upon lot of places and books where they say that niyogi brahmins were warriors for kaktiya kings is that true and has your research shown any thing in this direction. I would happy if you can help me finish my investigation.
---Yes they are correct. But the warfare activity is much earlier than kakatiyas. I'll give an example. The telugu poet Tikkanna's grandfather was also named Tikkanna, but called Khadga Tikkanna later to distinguish from the poet. Khadga=sword, because he was a famous general. Many such examples. This goes a long way back.
The niyogis, bhumihar of bihar, some konkanastha, some karhada, some mohiyal brahmins of punjab seem to share common roots....besides all of them have military tradition.
M. Maistry ( maistryM---aforbes.co.za)
I'm a South African Indian, trying to trace my roots in India. I'm the fourth generation in South Africa. I'm just trying to find an area or village or something that I can link myself with. We are Telugu speaking, my great grandfather came from a farming family in Andhra Pradesh. My grandfather's name was Narainsamy Naidoo. and probably "Kavati" as middle name/surname. Can anyone give some leads ? Is kavati a common surname in Andhra Pradesh ?
Balakrishnan(balki_sen AT rediffmail.com)
About NAICKER roots
Hi , I read some interesting discussions about kammas . I am a Telugu speaking Naicker (Rajakambalthu naicker) from Madurai,Tamilnadu. According to the Naicker history, we migrated to tamilnadu during vijaynagara empire in 13th or 14th century. Since people in tamilnadu don't use family name unlike in andhra, I don't really know which caste in andhra i belong to.
However, I found some of my relative names unique to telugus in tamilnadu. these names are not used by Tamils. Can you please tell me which caste in andhra i belong to by seeing these names ?
1. Chennaya / Sennaya/ Chennaraya / Sennaraya /
Sendraya /Chennama Naicker / Sennama Naicker
2. Bangaru / Bangaru samy
4. Kattabommu or Gettibommu
5. Jakkaya / Jakkamma
---- From a preliminary look it seems one, or some ancestors of yours was a vijayanagar officer --military governor of a province.
Can't say about the "caste" because by vijayanagar times it lost whatever importance it had earlier. Ppl of all backgrounds were appointed on MERIT TO VARIOUS OFFiCIAL POSTS. Obviously soldier positions would be filled by tough fighting type persons...the likely origins could be narrowed down to a few communities of those times, like --
kaapu ( mainly farmers, ready to pick up the sword)
velama (professional warriors)
kuruba (shepherds, contributed five dynasties to south india)
bedar (semi tribal but excellent sharpshooters from north karnataka)
there were also some others, like kamma and brahmin nayakas too. So, it is up to you to choose....actually speaking you CAN get much more details by going through the inscriptions, but I dont have them all with me. I'll try to get some info.
Kattabomma sounds like Katta Brahmayya Naidu ( kapu). Any readers can throw some light?
About velamas--I met a military officer who is a big landed velamadora, he said one section of velamas were "imported" from Madhya Pradesh -- Chambal region to restore law and order in border of forest areas. Their job was to finish off dacoits and robbers. This took place something like four hundred years ago. Then they developed samstahanams ( huge landed estates) in those areas. This imported section looks fair more like from north India.
K. V. (--)
I'm from A.P. My uncle who lived for a while in ethiopia used to tell us his experiences---many times he saw people there who exactly resembled persons among our relatives. Without sounding boastful, mostly in our community Munnuru Kaapu we are dark complexioned, slim, tall,...good looking. Some of us are very fair. My uncle said there is no doubt there is a link from ancient times between africa and us particularly some tribes of east africa, and many tribes of ethiopia and somalia.
Krishna MK ( krishnamk---spryindia.com ):--
My name's Krishnamoorthy. Surname is Kodidhineni, but in my village in Anantpur district they call us Kodidala. Our grand parents come from Kadapa district near Pulivendla. Anyone have any ideas about our origin ?
Velamas could be the peasant-soldier class of velanadu. Like Velanati kapus( a minor segregation in kammanadu kapus). Probably. as you said rightly there's lot of racial admixure, migration, military movements later...
...without exception all the "castes" of today have diverse roots. We can track some cultural threads, but we also have to understand there are a great many threads we dont know of. (Like one friend wrote, everybody wants to highlight only those ancestors who were royalty .... not ancestors who were simple ordinary people!)
Hi, "Kallu" surname belongs to which community?
---kallu in surnames might indicate --kal, --gal, or -- rock denoting a place. Like Orugallu ( warangal),etc. In medieval telugu --gal becomes -ganti denoting origin from. Someone from Orugal became Oruganti. Sometimes it was simplified again back to the --gal or -kal. Many placenames ending in --kal. e.g. Dornakal. I asked around this is all I could get.
I am really delighted with ur articles. I would like to know more about kaapu community. Particularly in krishna district. What is distinction between kammas and kapus ...it looks like all these are decendants from same group. can u clarify this. thanks, --ravi
reply: It is the cultural history is interesting. Genetically in a region all are closely related whether kapus or kammas or reddis or brahmins etc. For example, it has been found that sc's of punjab are far closer to rest of punjab population than to sc's of tamilnad. The categories and differences mainly arise from economic occupation and lifestyle. Only slight physical differences are seen reflecting some remote movements of people. This has been going on for ages. Really speaking only some isolated tribes can be said to be distinctive. Not in India. There is a blend all over.
David Brynerd( sallapudi2003 --- yahoo.co.in):--
Sir, this is quite interesting to know about communities and surnames through web. It is useful for personal verification and for research. Keep it up.
I need to know about my origin of Surname and to which part of andhra my ancestors belong(Now we are in West Godavari District). We have doubt whether to write "sallapudi" or 'Challapudi'. If there any body reading this please give me the feedback.
Second thing, I am working on fishing communities of andhra pradesh for my doctorate in Anthropology. Mostly on Pallis. But they claim as agnikula and narrate some story about their origin. But I think they are migrated from Chennai. Can I equate them them with Vannikulas of Chennai ?---David
-- Fisherfolk are ancient community : much older than any telugu and tamil. The traditions of agnikula etc have a germ of truth, although the details have been garbled. I dont have accurate info about vannikulas so I cant say for sure. Most probably ALL fisherfolk on east and west are related. East coast and west coast traditions may differ, but occupation is identical anyway. Also in long ago times, many coastal fishermen have become expert deep ocean sailors too.....they sailed the ships from India all the way to s.east asia china japan, during satavahana, pallava, eastern chalukya, chola times.. You are the expert on the fisherfolk communities : please share some more details with us.
HUNS are actually TURKS .....and both are NOT MONGOLS
Geographer STRABO says that Huns lived in the eastern parts of the territories of the Kingdom GREEK-BACTRIA ....Historian PLINIUS(d.125 B.C) recorded "The kingdom in question was destroyed by Huns..........Chinese chronicles regarding the collapse of the Kingdom GREEK-BACTRIA reveal That Kingdom was destroyed by HSIUNG-NUS..
The regions where Huns lived in the maps drowen by geographer like OROSIUS(The ends of 1th century) and PTOLEMAIUS (160-170 B.C) were expressed by Chinese annals as the lands of HsIung-nus.
on the eve of the beginning of the great movement,The lands of ALANS were destroyed by Huns...AMMIANUS MERCELLINUS, famous historian of that period, recorded that "These lands belonging to ALANS were obtained by Huns.."
chinese annal named WEI-SHU let us know about the same topic in this way.. "The lands of ALANS were destroyed by HSIUNG-NUS.."
The Chinese capital LO-YANG is besieged by Hsiung-nus in the year of 311 ..Chinese chronicles reveals that The people who siege the capital city are HSIUNG-NUS... Many sogdian merchants are taken by HSIUNG-NUS as prisoners .....One of These merchants, who stay among HSIUNG-NU by being taken prisoner in the result of the surrounding in question , writes a letter in related to what He lives one day. ..in his letter ,He calls HSIUNGNU KHUN(=HUN)... The most striking point regarding This letter is why the letter H is used by sogdian merchant in spite of fact that There is no already the letter H in sogdian language .....
By the light of information given above We can identify the nation expressed with the names of Hun and Hsiung-nu in both chinese chronicles and with information geographers and historians gave to us as the same nation...
As to the meaning of the word Hun ..Linguistics reveal Hunnish was an archaic form of Turkic... There is no letter H in old Turkish. and There is the change K to H in Turkic...... for example, Hunnish word For WOMAN is KATUN ...This word has turned into HATUN in Turkey turkic over times... the original word for Hun is Kun.---It means people, nation and tribes in all turkic including Hunnish Turkic...
according to linguistics, Hsiung-nu comes from the word Hun and means non-chinese people living in the northern parts of China.
There were two big Turkish Tribes which had arrived in eastern Europe in the period following the last quarter of the fourth century... These were Hunnish-Bulgars Turks( Hsiung-nus,Onogurs,Kutrigurs,Volga and danube Bulgars ,Avars and propably Pechenegs).. the second one is that The main Turks ( eastern Turks; Khazars,oghus,kharakalpacks and kphycaks)
The main Turkish language which would be dominant in eurasian steppes Until 10th century was Hunnish-Bulgar Turkish. Aramaic writing in present-day Georgia appeared in the period following the Huns' penetration into the Caucuses. This writing was also used by the Bulgars. It is estimated that this writing was proto-Turkic and appeared before the Orkhun inscriptions in Mongolia.. Hunnish sentence which has survived to the present-day is the following.
Siu-keh thei-lei-kang buk kuk giou thuk-tang
Suke Tilikang Bukuk ku Thuktang (translation of sentence in Turkic.)
Suke TILIKANG Bukuk ku Tuktang ( translation)
su is soldier,army, war -----Ke = the dative of Su
Tilikang(= TILIKANG in Hun turkic)= TASIKANG ( in eastern Turkish), Ramsted said ,by looking at the changes L,S in turkic ,said that Hunnish was a Turkic with L,R
It is difficult to explain the names belonging to Asian Huns because of fact that they were translated into Chinese in the form of Chinese names. The meanings of the names of European Huns can be comfortably explained in Turkish. One of the most striking features related to European Hunnic names is that they can't be explained by any language but Turkish.
Some of the names belonged to the German language due to cultural interaction, but the majority of them were Turkish.
Some examples--- THE EXPLANATION OF SOME NAMES BELONGING TO EUROPEAN HUNS
(The first known King of european Huns) Balamir = Bala (child,
kid,young) + Mir (king)
(the son of Attila) Dengizik = sea storm
(the son of Attila) Csaba = shepherd
(a Hunnic leader) Atakam = Ata (grandfather, father)
AYBARS ( the uncle of ATTILA) = Ay = moon (and also the colour white in Turkish) + Bars (or Pars) = leopard, or a wild animal,,AYBARS is one of the names used still in Turkish.
The Linguist William Bang has proven the name of Attila's wife, to
whom Latins called CRACEA ,was ARIKAN in Turkish.
ARIKAN means BEATIFUL QUEEN.
ELLAK (the son of ATTILA) = KING,EMPEROR .
OKTAR( the uncle of ATTILA) = POWERFUL, BRAVE .
BLEDA( the brother of ATTILA) = this name is accepted by many
researchers as a name of German stock.. BLEDA can be explaned with the
name of BILDA ,which means EMPEROR, in Turkish.
((the name BUDAPEST, the capital of Hungary, is composed of the WORDS BUDA + PEST ...Both of these words are of Turkish origin. and BUDAPEST means the city of BLEDA. The Another name of Bleda was BUDA...This city was founded by Bleda..so The name of Bleda was given to the city in question.
ULDIZ/ ULDIN ( A HUNNISH KING) ULDIZ= STAR , ULDIN= HAPPY the names of some of European Hunnish Commanders and soldiers have been found in persian documents... These soldiers served to Persian army as the soldiers ..Some of these names are , KUBRAT, KURTAK, ERK- KAPGAN, TARKAN, TARKAN-BEG, TOPÇAK, KUBRAT = WOLF IN TURKIC,, KUBRAT is also the name of the first known king of Bulgar Turks.
BEG = is a caption used to express the chiefs of the tribes in old Turks..(BEG=BEY=BEK)
HUNS NOT MONGOLS
If european Huns were really of Mongol stock at least Mongol name would be came across...As it is seen that the only connection between Huns and Mongols is somewhat physical appereance....Huns have nothing to do with Mongols..... The term Mongol is wrongly and very commonly used by many researchers in order to express all nations and tribes originating in central asia. Turks are also a nation originating in Inner Asia .so Turks are wrongly accepted and supposed to be a race of Mongol stock. This is Pure noncense......
The suffixe IA in the word MONGOLIA is originally of Latin and means LAND,HOMELAND,, When We say Mongolia, (Mongol + IA) ..we indicates a land in which Mongols live... We indicate where MONGOL tribes...The homeland of all of these warrior Turkish tribes is the lands known as the present-day MONGOLIA ..The name MONGOLIA comes from the race MONGOL . ...Sien-pies ,which are the fore fathers of Mongol ,settled in the present day Mongol lands by migrating and became the dominant power in these lands in the period following Turks migrated in the direction of WESTERN. Mongols are a nation originating in MANCHURIA not in MONGOLIA
(ed.----Soon, some details about Atilla the Hun by Fatih Sengul.)
R Nemali ( r.nemali---comcast.net):--
Really enjoyed reading your article! We are Golconda Vyaparis with surname of Nemali. Was wondering if you had any more detailed information on either Golconda Vyaparis or Nemalis.
MORE ON MUDIRAJS : I am convinced that the "kalabhras" who invaded ancient Tamilnadu were the KURUBAS. They uprooted many old kingdoms down South got the name Mudiraja. Also the Mudiraj , Bunts, Vellalas and Velamas were all one people of Kalabhra origin. I feel the "raju" in the community name "mudiraju" indicates they belong to ruling class in the medieval society.
The mudirajs were mostly Chieftains (small kings) in Karnataka, Andhra, and Tamilnadu regions. A majority of the Mudiraj were professional soldiers, commandos and interior guards under many kings including Mudiraj Chieftains.
These people of military class who had no land ownership due to their full time soldier jobs became poor farm laborers with the collapse of kingdoms of Mudiraj and other Hindu Chieftains.
Those Mudiraj people who owned, managed and cultivated agricultural lands survived to remain as rich farmers and Zamindars in some parts of South India.
Some of the Mudiraj even today religiously worship Goddess ANKAMMA in the most traditional Dravidian style, in spite of their faith in Saivism, Buddism and Vishnavism with the trends of passing time. Ankamma Ballad associated with Colorfully Rangoli & Tantra aspects indicates the absorption of many flavors of many religions into KURUB (KALABHRA) culture.
-----reply:--Mudiraj have NO ANCESTRAL TRADITION of sheep/goat rearing as far as I know, unlike Kurubas. Mudiraj are always connected with village adminstration, the dam management, professional soldiering, from very ancient times. In some areas at some times the Mudiraj were feudal rulers too. But there is no nomadic pastoral artisan heritage like yadavas, gollas or kurubas for the Mudirajus. They are a settled farming-fighting community.
Similarly kurubas' ancient history is always as shepherds and goatherds. (Because of their healthy lifestyle the kurubas became very strong, with clear eyesight and became very successful soldiers later.)
But there is certainly a connection of Mudirajs with Bant community. However please keep in mind, ALL communities have four -five different strands in them. For example quite recently refugees from rajasthan gujarat, north UttarPradesh have settled in deccan area. (between 1300 -1700). They have merged with various communities with similar occupations and lifestyles. In 1500's Vijayanagar officials and soldiers were transferred to all areas regardless of their geographical origin and caste. So we cannot make hard statements about roots: it is mainly cultural. Hope you keep this in mind in your researches.
mullapudi nageswar rao(mullapudi_n--yahoo):--
What is the reason Kammas, Malas, Kaapus sometimes have the same surname. e.g Cherukuri. Any relationship between Kamma - Kaapu community, because their surnames are same. How can a person know about his genealogical tree.
----most of such names are derived from name of village. They dont mean anything other than the person's ancestors used to live there. All communities are related -- all. Including tribals, regardless of whatever surname they have.
Geneological trees are merely interesting stories. How to start ? Well if available, family stories are a good beginning. For some specific details you might check out land records, local government records, employment records may have some details. If you're going in for a broader view maybe inscriptions, historical writings, even historical gossip and tradition will give some details. But as you can easily see, at four generations itself the number of direct ancestors reaches 16, so it is meaningless except as an interesting curiosity. Taking 20 years an average for a generation, just 2 centuries means 1024 ancestors. Nobody really can get accurate details of all of them.
If you mean remote family history through genes, well it is still in its infancy and tells you something about 2 (only TWO) remote ancestors, one male and one female. (they are not in the same area or time) and if you have the inclination you could contact people who seem to have one of the same remote ancestor, i.e. there is some "blood-connection". How is this done? You could get your DNA tested and get some idea of what some of your specific DNA patterns are. When a sufficiently large number of samples are collected from an area, statistically scientists can get some rough indication of whats been going on, in terms of large scale population movements and the like. But interpretation of the results again comes back to archeology, history etc where the views tend to be confirmed. And quite often our cherished opinions about one's "ancestry" are punctured, like its happening in the USA and Europe.
If you are very persistent you could go further back in time, compare DNA with others, in fact even say hi to a confirmed extremely remote cousin ----Mr.Gorilla or Miss Chimpanzee, etc and far beyond to tigers and lions and dinosaurs also.
Also we always have to remember, when it comes to interaction, the differences between humans are actually social and cultural, not genetic. And recent research shows even animals, e.g. dolphins and elephants have their own complex social languages, only it is different from ours.
...the inherent racial features are structural not color based of 3 races and the admixture . That isn't to say that each of the three races have variations in their sub-races. Meaning each race has its people with lighter or darker attributes of the 3 zones color as well as the physical racial structures as well. Many educated people trace much of the world's people from Central Asia, and then the migrations out of Central Asia from some huge flood of the Caspian and Black Seas brought forth migrations west to the continent of Europe and also east to lands like India and China. Others believe that lands like India were not as small as they currently are and that India may have stretched all throughout Persia, Central Asia to geographically modern day India.
But one thing that is true is that skin color is not the same as race. The lightest skinned Negro has features of that of a Negro and will always be considered black. And a dark skinned Caucasian will always be considered Caucasian racially but maybe like "ethnic" such as many south Europeans or Persians and many people of India.
It is good you are looking for anthropological evidence from distant lands and distant times to try to connect it to the present. It may very well be that people of the world were migrating back and forth, and the areas that one group of people decided to inhabit, under a uniform system, flourished. But getting people of the world to unanimously agree on things honestly seems to be the biggest problem in bringing out the truth in all these matters we ponder.
-------reply: As you yourself have said, there are a full range of "intermediate types" between what you call negroid caucasoid and mongoloid, so you can't classify people either according to looks or from genes really except in small communities. During hard times, racism is handy to deflect outrage. See these welfare unwed mothers? Thats why your factory closed down and you're out of a job. See those good for nuthin rappers? Thats why the banks foreclosed on your farm. Keeps people away from asking about Enron, for instance.
if you get your own DNA analysed you'll probably find haplotype M124 , M17 among others. Those are considered the classical aryan markers, if it makes you feel good. Among others, only a few europeans bear them --like danes , russians, czech, ukrainians, maybe a very small number of germans, orkney islanders, (vikings), some arabs, some turks, most east iranians, tajik, kirghiz, kazakh etc all the way to manchurians on the pacific.
NOT italians or spanish or brits or french. These europeans bear haplotypes closer to africa. You know what that means, dont you?
Read previous discussions on this topic
Back to places of tourist and cultural interest of Andhra Pradesh
(these pgs were earlier at netinfo.hypermart.net)