K Ankarao( kokolu_ankarao AT yahoo.com ):--
About Mudiraj community:---You have rightly mentioned in your web site that the people of Mudiraj are not the traditional fishermen but they had entered into the fishing business from the time they started guarding the man made reservoirs..A large section of Mudiraj people in telengana had entered into this profitable fishing profession and even today they can be seen involved in this fishing profession and business.
It is a well known fact that the rulers of Kakatiya and Vijaynagar kingdoms were great patrons of building massive temples using huge rocks quarried. The rulers used to engage a large number of soldiers in mining rocks, moving rocks and erecting the same at temple sites as a part of peace time activity to keep their soldiers physically fit and also gainfully utilize them for people's welfare activities . These rulers very cleverly used to convert the rock and granite quarries into huge reservoirs to develop fisheries and supply water for irrigation.
These rulers also built other man made reservoirs such as Pakhal in warangal to improve agriculture through irrigation. Thus a section of mudiraj / bunt soldiers of Kakatiya and Vijaynagar kingdoms who took the job of guarding the reservoirs entered into fishing profession and business in their respective regions.
You have mentioned that the rulers of kakatiya were bonded labors and perhaps they were the nomadic ERUKALA. It is very difficult to believe and accept that the mind set of nomadic ERUKALA could elevate them to become rulers and it is very difficult to prove such a claims. The nomadic ERUKALA people who normally have no fixed place to live could not have possessed such an organizing capacity or culture to become rulers. They were nomadic but not the invaders like Muslims. The possibility of Kakatiya kings to be ERUKALA was impossible.
According to your page, the Kakatiya said about themselves that they belonged to "Samantha Vamsha". The "Samantha Vamasha" did not mean that they were the bonded laborers but it could be very well mean that they were the second level small rulers such as chieftains. Erukala with their nomadic culture could never become rulers nor could they even dream of establishing kingdoms.
The business of kingdom in the medieval periods was always a job limited to the people of kshatriya or the rich stationary people who involved in agriculture (bunt, mudiraj, kapu, reddy, etc), animal husbandry (yadava) and fish farming (mudiraj).
I have read somewhere that the kings of Kakatiya were the fishermen. The possibility of these mudiraj fishermen to be the rulers of Kakatiya kingdom was much more than the nomadic ERUKALA. The Mudiraj people were also the exponents in developing martial arts and thus it very closely matches to what you had written about the activities of these people in Kakatiya kingdom. No man of Kshatriya origin could ever like to accept such jobs under the kings of ERUKALA or it was also unbelievable that they could have such a taste and knowledge in Telugu language and could have united all Telugu people. This was possible only for influenced Kshatriya and farmers.
The caste classification of people of 1000 years old medieval period could not be the same as today. Yadavas, bunts, mudiraj, kapus, velamas were all belonged to almost to the same class of people with very little differences. These people were largely involved in farming, agriculture and village administration and thus got great opportunity to establish kingdoms with their powerful influence.
I do not hesitate to say that the caste and class of kakatiya people was not different from the caste and class of Harhararaya and Bukkaraya who were working as state treasurers in Kakatiya kingdom. They probably belonged to the same caste and ruling class of those days and were perhaps related also. The reason was that Sangamaraya, the father of Harihararaya and Bukkaraya was believed to be a migrant to Kampili from Warangal.
It was also a well known fact that Harihararaya and Bukkaraya were the two great sons among the five sons of Sangamaraya and Sangamaraya was not only the son-in-law of Kampilraya but also the treasurer of Kampilraya.
This royal connection of Raya brothers with the Kakatiya kingdom was a clear indication that the Kakatiya kings too belonged to the same or an affiliated branch of community of Raya kings who founded and ruled Vijayanagar Kingdom.
Many people do not known that there are similar surnames in Mudiraj and Yadavas which proves that they had the common ancestral origins but with same royal qualities. I have also come across the same gotra in the people belonging to velama and mudiraj. There was very close community relation for bunts and mudiraj with yadava rulers of Hoyasala. The involvement of bunts / mudiraj in the foundation of Vijayanagar empire, its continued survival and development to glorious highs, must be seen without any bias so that the origin of Kakatiya kings can be understood very clearly.
Harihararaya and Bukkaraya, who were in the court of Kakatiya kingdom, and who founded Vijayanagar empire were the true TELUGU speaking people of Bellary districts. Bellary was a part of rayalaseema since immemorial times till the states were reorganized based on languages and it was in Andhra State at the time of reorganization. The bellary districts were subsequently transferred to Mysore State for some political and administrative reasons. Even today a large number of people in Bellary and Hospet-Vijaynagar regions speak Telugu language. The people who founded the Vijaynagar empire were Bunts/Mudiraj and largely Telugu speaking and partly Tulu speaking.
There is no need to say that the kings of saluva dynasty who ruled Vijaynagar empire from Chandragiri near Thirupathi were all Telugu speaking people. The kings of Tuluva dynasty and the famous Krishnadevaraya were from the land of Tuluvanad but were fluent in Telugu.
The kings of Vijayanagar and Kakatiya kingdoms were none other than Telugu speaking bunt / mudiraj. The ancestors of Harihara Raya and Bukka Raya were all chieftains and Samantha Rajas and it was Harhara-II who was the first among Vijaynagar kings who assumed the title "RAJADHIRAJA" and thus declared their line of kings as high level kings and not as "SAMANTHAs".
I earnestly request the historians of Andhra Pradesh to honestly investigate the relation between the people of Kampili and Kakatiya in the language, caste and class without any bias. --K Ankarao
----the kakatiyas referred to themselves as saamanta VISTHI vamsa, not plain saamanta vamsa. (i.e. they proudly said they descended from bonded slave community.). They seem to have hailed from maharashta area long ago, when they were affiliated to the imperial rashtrakutas. The ancestral name of the kakatiyas matches with the maharastra equivalent of erukula community. Some 'nomadic' people could have been forced to move from their ancestral settled area, too. When the sakas or kushans lived in central asia they were nomadic too, because of the steppe lifestyle. When they settled down they established famous long lived states.
About Krishna Devaraya, again there is some connection to kuruba ( a pastoral nomadic sheep rearing community) not mudiraj / bunt as far as I know. Also please remember 'bunt' merely means 'professional armyman' or 'infantryman' and is a functional designation. More research and evidence is required to claim there is a strong connection between present day mudiraj and present day karnataka bunts.
Since you are keen, I suggest you consider the following. The fish farmers and dam maintainers are mostly mudirajs. When do these dams date from? Way back really, 400 BC at least. Before Satavahanas in fact. Also the Mudirajs are said to be traditionally appointed to perform specific administrative functions in villages. As you are aware, these things are very persistent. So there is no doubt the Mudirajs are a very ancient community and not one which was formed recently. Kakatiya and vijayanagar are rather recent in terms of Indian history, actually.
Addition:-- Something more on Celts:
Recently the largest hoard of iron age coins was found in Leicestershire. The reports did coyly mention the famous tribe , though cleverly omitted to mention this was CELTIC.
Wendell W Solomons (solomons2--mailcity.org):--
Some information on central asian immgrants to europe.
Acording to Saville "..the correct pronunciation of the country of Wales, or land of the Cymry, in its ancient tongue would be as near as possible to the names Kumree, Khumree, or Kumri."
Thomas Stephens, in the preface to his "Literature of the Kymry," says: "..Welsh or Walsch is not a proper name, but a Teutonic term signifying 'strangers,' and was applied to all persons who were not of that family: but the proper name of these people is Kymry. They are the last remnant of the Kimmerioi of Homer, and of the Kimry (Cimbri) of Germany. From the Cimbric Chersonesus (Jut-land) a portion of these landed on the shores of Northumberland, gave their name to the county of Cumberland, and in process of time followed the seaside to their present resting-place, where they still call themselves Kimry, and give their country a similar name.
Herodotus also notes...the Khumbri, a people who, in his day, dwelt in the Crimean peninsula and thereabout. ...they had come into that territory from Media, which he remarks was not their original home or birthplace."
..."the word Khumree, for the reason that the people who are known as Angles, Saxons, Danes, Celts or Kelts, Jutes, Scots, Welsh, Scyths (or Scythians), or Normans can trace themselves back to Media-Persia, but no further, and find their ancestors in the Khumree"
-----Thanks Mr Solomons for sharing the interesting info. The old Indian encyclopedias called Puranas describe in detail a geographic area called Kumuda-dveep, located somewhere to the north of India across the mountains. Possibly this is the same as the khumree you mention.
But English archeologists and geneticists say the celts did not immigrate to the british isles in any large numbers from the east (Halstatt , La Tene for instance), and the older residents of Britain are mostly derived from paleolithic europeans. About the celts, they say only the "culture" moved, not the people. Of the ancient invaders of Britain, only the Angles/Saxons / Jutes/ Danes/ Vikings immigrated in sizeable numbers with their families, they say. Confusing. Where did the celts in Britain come from, then? The english researchers instead indicate some connection to Basques rather than central asia. But they dont seem to take into account the rich celtic histories and mythology. I have a sneaky suspicion they are all out to destroy Celtic--Gaulish culture by these peculiar hairsplitting theories. Wonder what the the Irish and Scots think of all this.
Addition: according to some Y chromosome analysis, the older residents of the british isles are linked to the paleolithic inhabitants : but mtDna analysis says the women are mostly from europe. Confusing. Were they aggressive keltic amazons, then, who crossed the channel and beat up the men and then wedded them? Maybe their ways influenced the much later Boudicca. Or perhaps strange diseases selectively killed off the immigrating men and spared the women? Or using the razor, maybe the MtDNA theory is far more complex and is at present oversimplified.
A S L(laquisha2171 aol):--
I am an Africa American with Cape Verdean ancestry. Recently, I have become very interested in what I perceive to have been a cover-up by Europeans and White Americans. I am always astounded by how Europeans are able to put forth the notion that the people of Egypt were White people. Now, with the emergence of DNA, we are seeing distinctions based on shades of blackness.
I have read a great number of articles on biblical characters that now say that these people did not look European, but were probably a brown race of people.
I believe that religion and past justifications of slavery which were in part based on religion, are the basis of any cover-ups regarding the true history of Africa and its people.
Religion is a business in Europe and America and it would be very detrimental to the stability of the Western world if maybe some of the important people in the Bible were African. After all, recent discoveries in South Afria of decorated artifacts which were crafted while Europeans were still living in caves, shows that the people of Africa were not like the the ones depicted by Hollywood.
What do you think the motive of Europeans was and is to trivialize the history of African people. This was not done to any other race of people or at least not with the same vengence. I loved the article and hope that you have time to read my comments.
---- Yeah, there is certainly a cover up. Actually, even in european perceptions it wasnt always this way. The romans didnt have a "race" consciousness : even the later Italians did not. The change ocured as far as I can see, during the expansion of european mercantile capitalism. Thats when the dutch , english and others started trading in a big way. Eventually they realised the societies were rather weak and less developed e.g. social structures were not advanced, they also didnt have guns and modern tech. The British in particular were were very clever and exploited the already existing differences and tribal feuds in africa. Thus the trading powers slowly took over the regions.
This does not mean everything resulting from this was bad. It was dripping in blood certainly but eventually some changes for the better DID occur. It is still going on, in many parts.
I think the new concept of Imperial Racism was very handy to explain away the cruelties inflicted on the inhabitants. ..." these people are like children, they are subhuman, etc etc and we have to "bring them up". As far as I can tell this didn't quite work in China and India, ...even in colonial USA , but suceeded in parts of Africa. Also part of the blame for slavery has to be apportioned to african tribal heads who raided the weaker tribes for slaves to be sold to Arab traders and later the europeans and americans. Then they started selling off their OWN tribal people. The shocked and betrayed people had their spirit totally crushed with this perfidy. Some africans collaborated...original uncle toms.
By the way gene and other studies cost a great deal, and you can imagine if a scientist proposes a study to examine a hypothesis "there were many large scale immigrations from africa in ancient europe"....he'll probably not only NOT get any funding, he'll lose his job as well. Anyway it is up to the residents of Africa themselves to set things right. But they have to tackle things like inter tribal friction first, otherwise things will only get worse.
R N(S.Africa ):--
I would be extremely grateful if you could help me in obtaining any information of the origination and caste of the Naidoo and Reddy surname's.
----Please see the community pages on this site, there's some information. Very briefly, Naidoo is a title, not a clan /community name. Naidu /naidoo is derived from south Indian "nayaka" (locally changed to nayakudu which became nayadu, naidu, naidoo later.) Nayaka roughly means chief, leader, also law-enforcer. "Nyaya" in sanskrit denotes law, justice, etc. In the 1200's, the title nayaka is commonly seen in inscriptions of kakatiyas. It became a title of regional military governor of the vijayanagar empire between 1300's -1700's. Today people with names derived from nayaka are found all over south India. It means some ancestor was a sort of knight or baron or duke whatever, in the vijayanagar empire. In the 1600's after the grip of Vijayanagar loosened, some prominent nayakas managed to become independent kings. This is seen in Thanjavur and Madurai, Tamilnadu.
Reddi is remotely derived from Satavahana prakrit word 'raathi' (soft TH) meaning charioteer. Ratha = chariot. This is around 0 AD, and it may be either a official designation for a chieftain or there may have been a people /group /community in western maharasthra of the times. There are stray ancient inscriptions with this word and coins dating earlier too found in excavations, in southern andhra pradesh. In scientific and careful excavations, these were found betwen archeological levels called megalithic and satavahana. It also is found later as a colloquialism for "rashtrakuta" soldier. Rashtrakuta were a deccan plateau dynasty in the same area as the old rathis, and they expanded all over India including gujarat, rajasthan, and uttar pradesh. The village headman was usually called a Ratthodi or Raddi /Reddi. In 1300's the Reddis founded their independent kingdom(s) in coastal Andhra Pradesh.
erasmo perez( erasmo---myrealbox.com ):--
Where i can get genetic maps ? i mean, maps that show how the people in the world are genetically related ?
---Most of the genetic relationship "maps" available today are based on existing data which is NOT enough for a good map. However many scientists have made maps of their data, dealing with mostly their enquiry based on haplotype frequency etc which may not be of much interest to general readers. The large government and military labs may have such maps for their own classified use, of course...for example completely benevolent research on sars and aids and ebolla .. you know.
www.racearchives.com by Mr. Hdd has some tables and calculators showing genetic distance based on published data. May be of interest to you. Then there are some peculiar "family dna" sites. Unfortunately, even in scientific studies the published data is not always accurate and often flawed.... sometimes deliberately. Take it with some scepticism.
But clear -cut maps of what you are asking is not available for the public, will take few years. In any case the present day maps are merely statistical over a small sample. We are all mixed, there have been so many movements of people right from prehistory.
Indeed very interesting background to your research.......I would like you to explore the class struggle interleaved with the evolution of caste society. I know it's pretty complex but would urge you to train your thoughts in this direction too.
---It IS very much the class struggle in a primitive unclear form. Economic and political struggles have been going on for ages, but using the concept of "class struggle" in a mechanical fashion does not give any insights. Does such analysis give any better understanding of something which happened several centuries ago ? The sources are limited. Of course in some cases it is very clear like ekalavya and drona story.
I plan to dig into the past , but googling is no substitute for field work. I will let you know once I have more information on Kalinga from the ground up, once i get some time to spend in india.
I really appreciate your work and friends who have followed various threads of communities, but the real challenge is in the next few years when cultural homogenization is going on, not that i do not support that, now the first instance is iraq.
The christian missionaries specifically listed that nobody from kalinga has converted , but have succeeded in other parts of asia. In my view eastern religions are much more balanced than christianity in terms of guilt a person has to handle.
I am of the opinion that caste is preventing the good lookers and good brainers from interacting freely, though this does create a much more democratic pool. Its a country wide issue and not limited to andhra , though bengal seems to have come out of it to fall into another deep hole, like from frying pan into the fire. Only mumbai seems to have grasped the concept of self grown liberty and fraternity , though its fairly unequal ;)
----from what I've seen caste in India is losing relevence especially in large industrial cities like bombay. It becomes obvious to people (common man) that in today's world, individual capacity and ability is what matters. Cultural factors come later, really. However in matters of marriages and so on there is a residual influence, this also is out of attachment to tradition as identity. Also maybe the common man does not know, but the educated know very well these caste categories have never been watertight. Even entire "castes" i.e. groups, have fallen and risen in people's estimation. Ask anyone in India what caste an efficient medical doctor is, or a brilliant engineer or excellent musician. I asked a few people and all said the same thing. Please try it. (all of them said much the same thing, ".. such people are far above these caste categories, it does not matter and caste does not apply in the least")
I sincerely believe the "caste" structure as we see it, is crumbling rapidly. What will take its place? Toss up is regional or national patriotism-type of notion, I feel. It could also be some mild leftist 3rd worldist blah blah thing too.
But it is a mistake to think religions (any religion) can tackle caste. They operate on different planes and rarely interact, really. By the way did you ever think what will happen if all this caste-vaste business vanished overnight. One view is, what a menace they would become to the world !! They will again start the aryan plundering immediately! ;-)
About mumbai 'egalite fraternite' it has also got a lot to do with marathi culture and not just big city mentality. There are many big cities which are NOT socially advanced. Readers can give some input about this..
Very interesting material. I saw your note on Kammas. I agree with most of your stuff in there, but for some dates and facts that could be disputed like getting mixed up with Eastern Chalukayas
Couple of things you haven't looked at are
1) the impact of Shivasim and Jainism - story I read in one of the Kamma History books was that most of the Middle castes Kammas to Kapus were wooed back into Hindu fold during Pratapa Rudra's time, and they were given the last names by his minister. Most of these last names are therefore names of villages they originally hailed from. Makes sense because - having last names is mainly Aryan in nature. Even now in Tamil Nadu most folks don't have a last name (they just use their father's name).
2) the story of Palanati Yudam should give insights into how Andhra history shaped and how these castes evolved. Most of the characters in there seemed to be of different castes but seemed to be related. Probable differences due to Religion playing a big part.
History of Andhra needs to be seem from the eyes of an Indian. My belief is that most of the current day history texts just parrots old texts written by the Brits. Very little credit is given to Satavahana kings or Eastern Chalukyas. Search for Amaravati on the web and you will find that a state in Vietnam had that name. A lot of culture got exported to the east and Andhra gets very little credit. Hope you keep up the good work.
-----Tell us more about what you DONT agree and why. You see one big problem of indian history is simply lack of discussion on our part, and the fear it may not be very flattering to our pre conceived notions.
As far as the saivism and jainism are concerned I have mentioned in other parts of the site extensively. The 'community' categories are only a convenience --the history is spread all over the site, actually.
The Tamil folks have a very rich history including family/village names. They gave it up fairly recently due to the progressive dravida kazagam movement (well at least it was progressive initially). Now they are somewhat aggrieved and feel as though they have been cheated, and want to reclaim their cultural history.
M C S Reddy ( chandureddy7--yahoo) :--
I am from Aler, 23 kms from Bhongir and was impressed by the amount of information u had in your article. I suggest to add more pictures .Great job, well done
I am from amudalavalasa or srikakulam junction. It has lot of old buddhist history, in fact in a old buddhist jataka i found reference to kalinga bharadwaja being the priest.
I am a kalinga and thus ancient by present day standards, but i find it difficult to reconcile with. In the landscape of time my people were priests and very rich cultivators. Even today there are families with good pandityam and lots of cash. Kalingas are typically fairer than other andhra people and some of them have blue / green eyes.In fact my grand mother had greenish gray eyes. Genotyping will eventually occur in india as we move towards the future of humanity, the delta between between two extremes of humans would be only around 30,000 genes, which is miniscule.
I liked a comment on the site that too much thought about caste is an indication of stress :). Some of my relatives have historically been karnams and even now its hereditary though i wish we would computerize land records like karntaka. come on CBN (Action item).Marriages do occur with pattnaiks but not with any other castes.
Take a look at http://sino-sv3.sino.uni-heidelberg.de/FULLTEXT/JR-ENG/ramdas.htm
R Durgum( ):--
I just read the inscriptions about the Reddis in medak dist Mulug taluk in your reddis link.Was the language in Kannada?
Also what language were the inscriptions in Bhongir rock fort in? I as a child used to climb the rock fort all the time. I'm impressed by the architectural effort by the people in those times in building that fort at such perilous heights. I want to know all the details about that fort and its inhabitants in those ddays through the inscriptions.
I just wonder how those Tribhuvanamalla and Co lived on such a high hill fort especially during winters surviving with his soldiers. I remember inspecting the fort for any inscriptions but couldnt find any.
----- Kalyani chalukyas from northern karnataka expanded into telangana via medak then nalgonda. Their important towns in these areas were patancheru bhuvanagiri and kollipaka (kolanupak). Very large number of inscriptions dot the area. Most chalukyan inscriptions are in kannada, some in telugu.
About Bhongir fort-- generally the king moved round the state collecting taxes, and did not actually live in the fort. It was more of a safe haven in times of attack, and basically a garrison to control trade routes. The kings' camp and authorised governors too issued edicts and inscriptions mostly about tax cuts (somewhat like Bush, yeah but to specific cases) and officially registering somebody's gift to public benefit like wells, and temples which were public centers of those days. The entire area around Bhongir for twenty km is dotted with such inscriptions. I dont have photos right now but can obtain the TEXT.. this will take some time, can you wait for a while? I'll put it in a page on chalukyan times in andhra pradesh.